First Gathering 2009/02/06

To: francesx1984@hotmail.com, hpwang80@hotmail.com, linyi601@hotmail.com, phliu@ms2.seeder.net, xon4@yahoo.com
Start Time: 下午 6:34:01; End Time: 下午 8:43:11


Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:06:43)嗨
Hsinping says: (下午 7:06:55)lulu
Oculus... says: (下午 7:07:11)ㄣ
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:07:31)Hi
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:07:40)Hello
Oculus... says: (下午 7:07:46)ㄣㄣ
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:07:50)還沒看到怜儀跟宏奇
Hsinping says: (下午 7:08:18)01 那篇文章 po 的時候(約很六點)還在公司。
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:08:22)嗯嗯
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:08:24)好認真啊
Oculus... says: (下午 7:08:33)01?
Oculus... says: (下午 7:08:36)ㄛㄛ
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:08:36)對啊
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:08:40)怜儀=01
Oculus... says: (下午 7:08:46)ㄛㄛ
Hsinping says: (下午 7:08:50)我看她可能要快八點才會到家。
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:08:54)嗯嗯
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:09:04)所以... 我時間不是抓得很好
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:09:16)不過 我們上次見面約的時間也是這個時候
Oculus... says: (下午 7:09:26)巇
Hsinping says: (下午 7:09:26)剛剛看到她 po 文章的時間就覺得她時間可能會趕不太上。
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:09:42)沒關係   我們可以先開始討論
Hsinping says: (下午 7:09:46)(她家在新店)
Oculus... says: (下午 7:09:57)在哪裡阿
Oculus... says: (下午 7:09:59)文章
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:10:08)我們的討論串  我會整理到論壇中喔
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:10:14)有沒有人反對
Hsinping says: (下午 7:10:32)所以「康德判斷力批判」第一次讀書討論會，正式開始！
Oculus... says: (下午 7:10:47)ok
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:10:50)咦？好像應該已經開始很久了
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:11:40)好，我們預計談到八點半，okay?
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:11:55)首先，想聽聽大家本週閱讀的感想。
Hsinping says: (下午 7:11:55)嗯。
Oculus... says: (下午 7:12:10)946326
Oculus... says: (下午 7:12:21)如圖書
Oculus... says: (下午 7:12:27)如圖
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:12:36)（這個圖 可能不能整理到論壇中 呵呵）
Hsinping says: (下午 7:13:53)請問 Evelyn 是那一位啊？我是Forum上的 HP。
Oculus... says: (下午 7:14:03)是兔子
Oculus... says: (下午 7:14:06)應該是
Oculus... says: (下午 7:14:12)嘻嘻
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:14:23)http://mepopedia.com/forum/read.php?9,269
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:14:29)請參考
Oculus... says: (下午 7:15:01)對!是兔子
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:15:05)呵呵
Hsinping says: (下午 7:15:18)(嗯，是不是宗教所的同學？)
Oculus... says: (下午 7:15:42)她是宗教所的沒錯
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:15:56)這週，欣平跟佳惠有在論壇上提出問題
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:16:02)你們要不要介紹一下呢？
Oculus... says: (下午 7:16:13)好!先說感覺：很睏!無聊!
Hsinping says: (下午 7:16:15)(不要0
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:16:17)還是由我先跟大家介紹"representation"這個概念
Oculus... says: (下午 7:16:34)ㄡ剛剛看到有兩篇新的問題
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:16:39)對啊
Oculus... says: (下午 7:16:39)對ㄚ!
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:16:42)怜儀跟宛汝
Hsinping says: (下午 7:16:52)Oculus是指讀 Section 1 and 2 很睏、無聊？
Oculus... says: (下午 7:16:58)不知道的representation
Oculus... says: (下午 7:17:07)是的
Oculus... says: (下午 7:17:22)感想嘛!
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:17:29)育兆的感覺呢？
Hsinping says: (下午 7:17:29)哦，真直接。
Oculus... says: (下午 7:17:45)有人心臟受不了囉
Oculus... says: (下午 7:17:46)ㄆ
Hsinping says: (下午 7:18:12)(我覺得你來亂的。)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:18:15)哈哈
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:18:20)以上全部紀錄喔
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:18:29)我覺得不是很清楚有些語詞的確切意思
Oculus... says: (下午 7:18:37)1.representation的運作過程可能要講一下，以前雖然有唸過，不過還是希望講一下
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:18:52)用語，這是個問題。
Oculus... says: (下午 7:18:54)2.imagination更是不清楚
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:19:16)我有個建議
Oculus... says: (下午 7:19:29)3....ㄟ....就是我問的第二個問題
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:19:39)你們閱讀時 有些專有名詞的意義會很不清楚
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:19:53)可以把這些專有名詞 真的當作一個名字  
Oculus... says: (下午 7:19:54)因為它本身沒給解釋
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:20:04)就像「汪純瑩」這一個名字一樣
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:20:04)intuition是否有歧義？
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:20:23)名字  先指向一個對象
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:20:42)然後  越往後頭讀   這個對象會越來越清楚
Hsinping says: (下午 7:21:12)(Great!)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:21:45)我們先談談"representation"好不好？
Oculus... says: (下午 7:21:55)ㄣ
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:21:55)請各位發表你們的想法
Hsinping says: (下午 7:22:04)I agree.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:22:08)另外
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:22:12)一個建議
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:22:27)假如我們的一斷發言結束時
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:22:36)請加上一個[end]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:22:46)這樣 我們就不會插嘴
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:22:51)好嗎？ [end]
Hsinping says: (下午 7:23:03)You mean like "over" in the wireless radio communication.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:23:08)對對對
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:23:12)over 好像比較好玩
Oculus... says: (下午 7:23:14)ㄣ
Hsinping says: (下午 7:23:14)Especiall for long sentences.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:23:26)大家同意嗎？ [over]
Oculus... says: (下午 7:23:32)ouiHsinping says: (下午 7:23:37)yes  (<--- 應該就不用。)
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:24:01)yes
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:24:16)那 我先跟大家介紹 "representation"這個概念
Hsinping says: (下午 7:24:46)不過要是我的句子還沒完，我可能會加   con'td  之類的。
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:24:49)Representation (Latin)/ Vorstellung (German)在第一批判裡面，康德的定義如下：
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:25:20)"inner determinations of our mind in this or that relation of time" (A 197/B 242)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:25:36)其中A指向第一批判第一版本的paginationChun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:25:43)B 指向第二版本
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:25:45)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:26:43)補充，
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:26:53)representation乃是understanding產生的嗎？
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:27:05)determination of mind的結果是consciousness
Oculus... says: (下午 7:27:09)傳給我們的概念解釋中有一段
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:27:21)而consciouness包含self-awareness
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:27:23)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:28:14)回應育兆的問題：「representation怎麼產生的」
Hsinping says: (下午 7:28:14)I guess not (to Blau)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:29:04)要達到一個determination，需要imagination依照understanding的rule來做聯想
Hsinping says: (下午 7:29:11)(我的意思是我的直覺覺得好像不是，但沒有什麼基礎。)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:29:19)在這個句子裡  understanding跟imagination都是能力

小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans has been added to the conversation.

Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:29:43)有新朋友加入？
xon4@yahoo.com says: (下午 7:29:53)我是慧芬
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:29:56)你好啊
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:30:02)慧芬
Hsinping says: (下午 7:30:04)Good evening
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:30:07)已經開始囉
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:30:10)我們要不要前情提要一下
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:30:18)不用 謝謝
Oculus... says: (下午 7:30:20)她是小熊
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:30:22)沒關係
Hsinping says: (下午 7:30:22)I am HP in mepopedia.com.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:30:34)我們前面的紀錄，我都會整理到論壇裡
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:30:36)Good evening
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:30:47)謝謝 大家晚安
Oculus... says: (下午 7:30:55)安
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:31:10)或許，我用另一個方式介紹"representation"這個概念
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:31:24)康德思想當中  representation分作兩類：
Hsinping says: (下午 7:31:26)(願聞其詳。)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:31:35)第一類：representation with consciousness
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:31:45)第二類：representation without consciousness
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:32:13)第二類是物自身?
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:32:15)第一類稱為 "preceptio"
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:32:32)（物自身永遠不是representation）
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:32:41)()
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:33:05)perceptio 分作兩種： sensatio 跟 cognitio
Hsinping says: (下午 7:33:22)(Sorry for interrup. I guess you are using Latin, right?)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:33:28)cognitio 分作 intuitus 跟 conceptus
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:33:37)(yes, Latin)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:34:05)暫且把區分表介紹到此
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:34:29)而cognitio底下的兩類  intuitus是想像力所司、
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:34:44)conceptus是知性（understanding）所司
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:34:56)希望這樣大家會清楚一點 [over]
Hsinping says: (下午 7:35:09)(yes, you have made 4-layer conptual hierarchy or classification, or structure.)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:35:46)對 [over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:36:07)然後  我還有一個理解 "representation"的建議
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:36:22)就是  不要用中文的「表象」去理解
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:36:24)你還沒講第二類是什麼啊?
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:36:34)而是把他理解為一種"awareness"
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:36:38)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:36:51)第二類基本上康德避而不談
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:37:13)因為 他暢談這一類的書（他的第一本書）被冷落了一年
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:37:24)他就不在明目張膽地談了
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:37:27)[over]
Hsinping says: (下午 7:37:43)I try to "repeat" Kant's defintion in (A 197/B 242): "inner determinations of our mind in this or that relation of time."
Hsinping says: (下午 7:38:25)(sorry, what do you (Gustav) mean by 他的第一本書？)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:38:31)不過 我個人認為 the representation without consciousness與康德所稱 "the mysterious mental state"有關  [over]
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:39:03)謝謝Wang的介紹，大家對上述分類有興趣的話可以看看第一批判的A320/B376的地方
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:39:37)補充: the mysterious mental state 是肇生一切心智現象的根源
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:39:42)[over]
Hsinping says: (下午 7:39:54)(thanks, 育兆, Do I type your name correct?))
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:40:19)那想聽聽大家對這個分類，以及"representation"的想法或批評
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:40:25)[over]
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:41:35)To HP,名字正確
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:41:50)所以  understanding這個能力  跟 representation的關係  有點複雜
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:42:12)不可以說representation是understanding的產物，但也不能說不是
Oculus... says: (下午 7:42:25) sensatio 跟 cognitio的關係是?
Hsinping says: (下午 7:42:50)For the definition in Critique one, I guess it's an reflection from inner to outer perceptions?
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:42:59)sensatio 跟 representation without consciousness兩者  有著不可告人的私密關係
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:43:14)[over]
Hsinping says: (下午 7:43:14)(I don't mean Kant's reflection, but more like 反射。)
Hsinping says: (下午 7:43:18)[over]
Oculus... says: (下午 7:43:36)= =
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:43:49)不清楚HP的意思 [over[
Hsinping says: (下午 7:44:31)The first impression of the defition is again Kant's style weird feeling
Hsinping says: (下午 7:45:00)becaseu we intuitively feel that represenations are outer experence, whil he defines it's inner determinations.
Hsinping says: (下午 7:45:54)So, I guess he has some indication about the relations in inner and outer ...somehting I don't how to name it (or them).
Oculus... says: (下午 7:45:54)untuitus和concept的關係又是?
Hsinping says: (下午 7:45:56)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:46:16)我先回應 眼睛小姐
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:46:50)"intuition without concept is blind, concept without intuition is empty,"  quote from first Critique
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:46:54)[over[
Hsinping says: (下午 7:47:55)(contitue) The weird, perhaps feeling, happen more for the  even mysterious "in this or that relation of time."
Hsinping says: (下午 7:48:21)(repeat) (continue) The weird, perhaps confuesd feeling, happen more for the  even mysterious "in this or that relation of time."
Oculus... says: (下午 7:48:37)以上兩個問題要問的是：如果可以將意識的運作過程畫成圖來解釋的話，是否可以確切畫分從哪開始是哪個的運作
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:49:23)[to Oculus]  可以這樣做嗎？ [over]
Hsinping says: (下午 7:49:36)(Can I say the quote from Kant is cool?)
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:50:05)我猜是不行
Hsinping says: (下午 7:50:15)(You mean Kant is not cool?)
Hsinping says: (下午 7:50:31)(不要理我)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:50:51)Well,
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:50:55)我認為，意識
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:51:02)不可運作
Oculus... says: (下午 7:51:12)so如果不行 為何要如此畫分
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:51:13)運作的是心智
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:51:20)意識 是結果
Oculus... says: (下午 7:51:25)對康德的意義是什麼
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:51:37)Ok, 我回應
Oculus的挑戰Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 7:51:49)wow
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:51:49)你認為視覺跟聽覺可不可以劃分
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:51:57)[over]
Oculus... says: (下午 7:52:38)對我而言某些'壯況下可以
Oculus... says: (下午 7:52:48)當我注意到的時候
Oculus... says: (下午 7:53:29)某些狀況則是：視覺會影響到聽覺
Oculus... says: (下午 7:53:54)你要說的是?
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:53:57)我再問
Oculus: 如果劃分有什麼好處？ 不劃分有什麼好處？  什麼時候該劃分或時麼時候不該劃分呢？ 假若不能芬請處什麼時候該劃分、什麼時候不該劃分，我們會怎樣嗎？
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:54:12)sorry
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:54:16)不能分清楚
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:54:27)什麼時候該劃分、什麼時後部該，我們會怎麼樣？
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:54:30)[over[
Oculus... says: (下午 7:54:31)假若不能芬請處什麼時候該劃分、什麼時候不該劃分，我們會怎樣嗎？→好像不會怎樣
Oculus... says: (下午 7:54:32)ㄆ
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:54:53)其他人有想法嗎？
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:54:59)對我的問題？ [over]
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:55:25)畫分是一回是   本身功能有區別是另一回事
Oculus... says: (下午 7:55:35)話說：不踏能理解你問的問題跟我的問題之間的關聯
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:55:39)佳惠問的是功能區別的層面吧
Oculus... says: (下午 7:56:00)(是我恍神了嗎)
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:56:21)所以既畫分又不劃分  看你在哪個範疇說
Oculus... says: (下午 7:56:34)知識論上來說
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:56:52)我在回答佳惠的問題： 劃分對康德來說的意義是什麼？ [over]
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 7:57:19)那是佳惠的第二個問題  第一個問題是有沒有畫分 怎樣劃分
Hsinping says: (下午 7:57:24)(To be direct, I don't like Oculus' attitude about proposing quesitons itself.)
Oculus... says: (下午 7:57:51)雖然不能說有什麼實際上的先後順序 不過在理解意識怎麼產生的時候 是否有所謂的運作過程這樣的東西呢
Hsinping says: (下午 7:58:05)For me, gustav's chanllenging challenges some part of this, my personal guess.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:58:41)運作過程 ，不包含在意識內容中 而是包含在意識形式中，我想康德惠這麼回答Oculus
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 7:58:44)[over]
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:00:08)所以我們最好可以先區分有哪些主要的意識形式？
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:00:14)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:00:24)那是康德所謂的「批判」所作的工作
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:00:30)在批判中，
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:00:46)我們在我們的意識裡區分出意識的不同形式，
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:01:12)然後我們假設這些形式各有主司的faculty
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:01:25)而因為這些faculties 彼此合作
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:01:42)所以 在我們的意識中 可以體驗到各式各樣的事物、經驗
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:01:44)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:02:00)[補充]
Oculus... says: (下午 8:02:23)消化中
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:02:24)如果我們對於我們的心智各官能能掌握得更清楚
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:02:40)我們會更知道怎麼讓自己的生活過得更和諧
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:02:42)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:03:19)[補充] 道德意義永遠都隱藏在康德的任何批判工作當中。 [over]
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 8:03:31)可是上面說 這些能力是來自"假設" 既然是假設的 怎能真的掌握到什麼?
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 8:04:20)看起來 作這些能力假設 只是方便我們去分辨不同的意識狀態而已?
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:05:00)這裡的假設，是一種帶有先驗意義、以先驗關係所作的假設
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:05:13)不同於在意識活動當中我們所作的hypothesis
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:05:24)這麼說吧，
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:05:34)這是我們不得不如此做的假設
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:05:39)就像
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:05:57)我們不得不從我們看到的顏色，去假設我們有視覺能力一樣
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:05:58)[over]
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 8:06:29)已經"能"看到了  為什麼還要假設?
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:06:48)所以  你也可以就當作我們有這個能力
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:07:06)[over]
Hsinping says: (下午 8:07:12)(good)
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 8:07:25)身體的官能  和意識上的"能力"不一樣Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:07:49)我也是這麼覺得
Hsinping says: (下午 8:07:57)I think there is a contradict in your both "questions".
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 8:08:00)視覺有眼睛神經等等實際存在的東西證明  意識的各種能力只是光用想的
Hsinping says: (下午 8:08:13)(for 小克力熊)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:09:14)基本上  心智能力包含了感官官能，還記得剛剛提過的「representation的分類」嗎？
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:09:17)另外，
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:09:52)似乎  我們的意識才是第一手資料，而視覺經驗還是在那第一手資料裡面分析出來的
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:09:56)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:11:20) [Joke]---- Je pense, donc je suis/ 我思故我在 [joke over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:11:38)hello, 怜儀來了！

01--Promise has been added to the conversation.

Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:11:51)嗨
Hsinping says: (下午 8:11:56)Good night, 01.
Oculus... says: (下午 8:11:58)hi
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:12:20)我們先前的談話都有紀錄。會整理到mepophorum上。
Hsinping says: (下午 8:12:52)We are discussing about representation and consiousness, and it relations with sensation.
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:12:58)Hello
01--Promise says: (下午 8:13:10)h
Hsinping says: (下午 8:13:12)(I guess)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:14:32)不過，我們是不是也應該針對本週閱讀的部份做些討論？  針對aesthetic以及interest? [suggestion over]
Hsinping says: (下午 8:14:52)sure
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:15:41)大家對「審美判斷是主觀的、審美判斷是universal」這個背反 有什麼看法？ [question addressing over]
Hsinping says: (下午 8:16:04)I suggest discuss http://mepopedia.com/forum/read.php?122,271 Evelyn's question.
Hsinping says: (下午 8:16:40)especially
另外在第二節學長的摘要裡寫:
利害相關，便與概念有關，便是透過知性（understanding）將表象關聯於客體，
這便失去將表象關聯於純粹主體自身的條件。
不與利害相關，便是不與概念有關，這才有將表象關聯於主體的條件。
可是在之前的提問裡,利害應當成已經發生過的、與主體愉悅感有關的心智狀態．．．．
那...為什麼會說不與利害相關的, 才有將表象關聯於主體?利害本身不是就與主體相關嗎? (惑)

Oculus... says: (下午 8:17:00)客觀的不一定是普遍的，我不能了解主觀和普遍哪裡背反
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:17:15)那很好啊 [over]
Hsinping says: (下午 8:17:33)(you are bad bad, gustav)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:17:46)[joke] 那你應該會跟很多哲學系的老師吵架 [joke over]Hsinping says: (下午 8:18:00)(bad joke)
Hsinping says: (下午 8:18:07)[over]
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:18:14)I have a question
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:19:50)How can I refer aesthetic representations solely to my feeling? [over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:20:15)It's natural.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:20:44)Or, the refering itself is the determining, and the determination "makes possible" the representations
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:20:55)And representations are all that we can "see"
Hsinping says: (下午 8:22:28)(I gradually conceive your quoted Kant's definition of representatio.)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:22:29)so, if you get your mental state under the condition for an aesthetic determination, then you necessarily are in an aesthetic representation; therefore, you necessarily "refer" the aestheic repreentation solely to the feeling of your self
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:22:32)[over[
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:23:06)不過Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:23:15)育兆所提的
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:23:39)還牽涉到一個問題，或者這個部份比較接近育兆提問的
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:23:57)就是  康德相信  想像力的聯想會造成我們的「感覺」Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:24:34)感覺有客體（外）感覺跟主體（內）感覺 
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:24:48)我這麼說好了：
Hsinping says: (下午 8:25:23)(the association of imagiaion?)
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:25:25)I mean I must have other kind of judgement of the same object at the same time....
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:26:14)Yes, you are right
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:26:37)但我們還是可以區分兩種判斷？
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:26:42)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:26:46)so, on the one hand, you are aware of the object; on the other, you are aware of your feeling about the object.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:27:23)If the relation between your feeling and the object you are aware is necessary, then there are rules about the relation.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:27:47)Kant divids three kinds how we relate an object to our feeling:
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:28:02)liking or disliking for the agreeable
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:28:09)liking or disliking for the goodC
hun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:28:18)and liking or disliking for the beautiful
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:28:35)and he provides his insihgt of these three kinds in secontion 2, 3 and 4
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:28:41)[over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:29:56)[joke]阿  這麼安靜，是不是因為預定的結束討論時間到了的關係[joke over]
Hsinping says: (下午 8:30:47)(You are bad bad)
Hsinping says: (下午 8:31:28)(I think I should correct it as "You are bad-bad" fro grammatic purpose.)
01--Promise says: (下午 8:32:43)我努力想要跟上...
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:32:43)haha [over]
01--Promise says: (下午 8:33:22)心智需要進入一種狀態才有辦法進行這樣的討論
01--Promise says: (下午 8:33:48)Sorry for no comtribution.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:34:04)我們是長期抗戰 以時間換取大空間 
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:34:10)我們都不用急吧
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:34:14)[over]
Oculus... says: (下午 8:34:37)這不用道歉吧
Hsinping says: (下午 8:35:09)(To 01, it's becaseu you miss the part we are 閒聊。)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:35:16)lol
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:35:35)So, let's stop here? haha, lol
Hsinping says: (下午 8:36:13)Ya, I sugess we start a little bit latter in our next meeting.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:36:23)其實  論壇用來討論真的很好用啦[chat over]
Hsinping says: (下午 8:37:00)For 01 or Hung-chi who has a job in the day time, they may be home too late to this dialogue.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:37:31)所以以後可以排晚一點是不是？
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:37:37)下次是讀3-4節嗎？ [over]
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:37:38)大家談個時間吧
Hsinping says: (下午 8:37:49)(是你要那麼早的。啊................)
01--Promise says: (下午 8:37:50)我覺得概念上的東西用論壇會比較好, 需要想一下, 用msn 會跟不上, msn比較適合將一些例子吧
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:37:51)對啊  下次讀三、四節
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:38:09)我們慢慢磨一個好的模式出來吧
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:38:11)[over[
Oculus... says: (下午 8:38:19)ㄣ
Oculus... says: (下午 8:38:40)需要適應
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 8:38:45)msn不適合討論  根本什麼都還沒講幾句 就結束了
Oculus... says: (下午 8:39:14)很難講清楚
Oculus... says: (下午 8:39:20)over
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:39:29)應該說，歡迎大家多多利用論壇，很多概念的釐清與問題的討論，可以在論壇上做好。
Hsinping says: (下午 8:39:30)(As a member, I strangely feel we have talked much, if not so much.)
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:39:42)在msn上，就是閒聊  哈哈
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:39:45)[over]
01--Promise says: (下午 8:40:00)I agree
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:40:27)可以看msn的記錄再到論壇發問
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:40:47)good idea, 育兆！ [over]
Hsinping says: (下午 8:40:59)In my fresh remind, the classical defition of repretation, and the hierarchy of represenations are quoted. (by gustav and 育兆).
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 8:40:59)那就這樣吧  
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:41:06)MSN功能之一：激發問題！
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:41:21)好，那我就把我們的對話貼到論壇去
Hsinping says: (下午 8:41:51)An intersting discussion about awareness and mind (mental) operation is disclosed.
Chun-Ying Wang says: (下午 8:42:25)good bye, then.  I will give another notice (for the forthcoming week) perhaps tomorrow.
Hsinping says: (下午 8:42:28)And an attempt about the differnet judgments (in our mind) is started.
Hsinping says: (下午 8:42:37)So I think it's quite cool, though.
01--Promise says: (下午 8:42:38)Good bye
Die Farbe Blau says: (下午 8:42:50)Bye~~
小克力熊㊣:[=Gua Chaseau=Velux 5 Oceans says: (下午 8:42:56)good night~



(編輯記錄)

It's so good that we together execute some interesting experiments and explorations on the avant-guard way of communication. I hope we can cook up some fine ways of communication.

Sometimes, we may find it easy to talk face to face. Sometimes, we may find it easy to talk via writing. What and how is it easy then, and what and how it is easy now. Maybe we together can experience more.

In the hours we talked via MSN, in some sense, we seemed only to address only a few, but actually we arose quite a bunch. Please go through again the dialogues we brought up and feels it.

Time and space are sole intuitive forms of our representation. Sometimes, they feels so magical.

呵呵，
是的，我是宛汝
（連指導教授都會寫錯我名字的宛汝）（笑）
宗教所的碩三學生，請多指教！

另外，容我回應一下佳惠的感想～
以過去讀過康德的經驗....我個人認為康德比較像是抹茶....
而且是很純不加糖的抹茶，
要讀上好一陣子才會回甘喔～（笑）

哈哈！


P.S. 名字已經訂正了！



(編輯記錄)

抹茶似乎不太適合咖啡貓ㄝ!
呆...